As a simple American who would like peace everywhere instead of wars, I am not in favor of giving any of Ukraine away to any other country. They should be allowed to be an Independent Nation where the Ukrainian people lead the country with fair laws enacted and which ideology they wish to be as a people. Negotiations should not be a tug of war game between two powerful Nations who each wish to control Ukraine. Russia needs to get out and leave all Ukrainian land to Ukrainians. The US needs to leave it up to Ukrainians to decide if they wish to continue being the country who keeps Europe safe by continuing their pact with the US. If they want to be part of NATO that should be up to them not others. They should be left a free independent country with all their land. Since Russia attacked them and destroyed their land Russia should be negotiated to pay them retribution to rebuild. Negotiations is useless if it divides up Ukraine! This meeting between the 3 should be a peace pact negotiated to end Ukraine being the victim of powerful tugs of war games! Nothing taking away anything from them.. They were doing great before being attacked! They should be respected as independent and to continue that as they were before any war was declared on them. It can be simple once the countries with power stop trying to take more land than what they have to live in. Give back to Ukraine and ask them what they want. That’s true negotiations without greed and more power involved. Just stop wars so independently strong countries can survive. I respect the Ukrainian leadership who chose to be the land protecting Europe from being invaded. That is brave and on the right side of history. They earned their seat at at the table without bullying by any one.
"I am not in favor of giving any of Ukraine away to any other country."
Even if that particular "any of Ukraine" was villified and attacked by fascist Ukrainians as full of traitors and ordered to dissolve themselves into "Greater Ukraine" through the abandonment of the language they used and other such methods of "cultural cleansing"?
I am not as informed or nearly as smart as most on here. I just can base my own thoughts on what I can read and observe. Therefore my only intention of stating what I did was to have Ukraine back to the way it was where people were not dying from being attacked during their everyday lives. The country seemed healthy and striving before this war upon them and all I hope is that they get back what was taken from them and peace is restored to all Ukrainians. I don’t want other countries to take land away from them. It was theirs before and should remain theirs after peace is attained.
Then, I suggest you read a little more about what "they" were doing in the eastern part of the country before Russia invaded "them". It's not as though the inhabitants of every country are some culturally monolithic bloc that speaks with one voice.
"I don’t believe any country exists as you state." Yes, I think I believe you. "you still miss my point" >blink!< I'm sorry: you had a point? "I’m sorry for that." Wow! There really is a secular version of "I'll pray for you"! Well, you be that, Child . . . .
The Ukrainian people should be the ones to decide the resolution of this conflict, not the US and certainly not the brutal Russian dictator who committed this unprovoked act of aggression to begin with.
If the war was unprovoked, I'd sure like to know why so many of us had been holding our breath and waiting for this to happen for the 5 or 6 years prior to the invasion. Provocation, however, is not justification. I, along with the thousands of dead soldiers and their family members on both sides of this conflict, wish that Putin had not chosen such a destructive path.
Minsk IV, "trust us" this time it's for real! No really.
I'm not sure if the Russians will take anything less than Putin's aims, which are known to everyone. I wonder in the man in the green t-shirt will get to enjoy his (and his in-laws) extensive real estate portfolio. History isn't particularly kind to obsolete former US allies.
Ukraine will have to give up roughly 20 percent of its territory that Russia currently occupies — calling this “not the worst outcome in the world”(!)
This is basically what was on offer in the Minsk agreements, which the US and UK encouraged Zelenskiy to reject. At this point, it's probably the best outcome to be hoped for. In the meantime, Ukraine has been destroyed, China has enveloped Russia in a very powerful alliance, Europe's economies are in freefall and and both the Ukrainians and Russians have incurred hundreds of thousands of unnecessary casualties. All because of Washington's cynical policy to bleed Russia and fight this war down to the last Ukrainian.
I think Kellogg is going to find this war a tougher nut to crack than he thinks. On the one hand, he has a way to force Zelenskyy to give in: threaten to stop the arms shipments. On the other, he has a way to force Putin to give in: threaten to back Ukraine to the hilt. The problem, obviously, is that he can't do both.
Putin will be happy to pretend to negotiate, but he won't want to accept any Western security guarantee for Ukraine, even if it's not NATO. So some pressure will have to be applied. It's not at all clear that sanctions are going to suffice; Russia has already found ways around them. It's going to require military pressure, and that puts us back pretty much where we are now.
It's very interesting to see the reddit top comments on Ukraine related posts change overnight as the NATO position shifts from collapsing the Russian state with the blood of Ukrainians to conceding territory permanently being the only sensible pathway forward. Web 2.0 truly is half bots and troll farms on all sides of every geopolitical issue.
Wouldn't the "best outcome" be the toppling of Putin's dictatorship as a result of his adventurism and a return of Russia to at least the proto-democracy it was before he seized power?
Someday I hope to meet Biden and Harris and say, "Maybe you wouldn't have lost if you cared half as much about rebuilding East Palestine, Jackson, Flint, Asheville, or any single place in America as you did about Saudi Arabia, Israel, Ukraine..."
Hmm. Given how I've heard the past few decades called a "new Gilded Age", with the possible rolling up of Ukrainian fascists' desires, the first thing that popped into my head was the phrase heard so much close after its end: "stab in the back" .
(And don't forget what happened to Shimon Peres and who killed him . . . .)
As a simple American who would like peace everywhere instead of wars, I am not in favor of giving any of Ukraine away to any other country. They should be allowed to be an Independent Nation where the Ukrainian people lead the country with fair laws enacted and which ideology they wish to be as a people. Negotiations should not be a tug of war game between two powerful Nations who each wish to control Ukraine. Russia needs to get out and leave all Ukrainian land to Ukrainians. The US needs to leave it up to Ukrainians to decide if they wish to continue being the country who keeps Europe safe by continuing their pact with the US. If they want to be part of NATO that should be up to them not others. They should be left a free independent country with all their land. Since Russia attacked them and destroyed their land Russia should be negotiated to pay them retribution to rebuild. Negotiations is useless if it divides up Ukraine! This meeting between the 3 should be a peace pact negotiated to end Ukraine being the victim of powerful tugs of war games! Nothing taking away anything from them.. They were doing great before being attacked! They should be respected as independent and to continue that as they were before any war was declared on them. It can be simple once the countries with power stop trying to take more land than what they have to live in. Give back to Ukraine and ask them what they want. That’s true negotiations without greed and more power involved. Just stop wars so independently strong countries can survive. I respect the Ukrainian leadership who chose to be the land protecting Europe from being invaded. That is brave and on the right side of history. They earned their seat at at the table without bullying by any one.
"I am not in favor of giving any of Ukraine away to any other country."
Even if that particular "any of Ukraine" was villified and attacked by fascist Ukrainians as full of traitors and ordered to dissolve themselves into "Greater Ukraine" through the abandonment of the language they used and other such methods of "cultural cleansing"?
I am not as informed or nearly as smart as most on here. I just can base my own thoughts on what I can read and observe. Therefore my only intention of stating what I did was to have Ukraine back to the way it was where people were not dying from being attacked during their everyday lives. The country seemed healthy and striving before this war upon them and all I hope is that they get back what was taken from them and peace is restored to all Ukrainians. I don’t want other countries to take land away from them. It was theirs before and should remain theirs after peace is attained.
Then, I suggest you read a little more about what "they" were doing in the eastern part of the country before Russia invaded "them". It's not as though the inhabitants of every country are some culturally monolithic bloc that speaks with one voice.
I don’t believe any country exists as you state. And you still miss my point and I’m sorry for that.
"I don’t believe any country exists as you state." Yes, I think I believe you. "you still miss my point" >blink!< I'm sorry: you had a point? "I’m sorry for that." Wow! There really is a secular version of "I'll pray for you"! Well, you be that, Child . . . .
You seem pretty informed to me.
The Ukrainian people should be the ones to decide the resolution of this conflict, not the US and certainly not the brutal Russian dictator who committed this unprovoked act of aggression to begin with.
If the war was unprovoked, I'd sure like to know why so many of us had been holding our breath and waiting for this to happen for the 5 or 6 years prior to the invasion. Provocation, however, is not justification. I, along with the thousands of dead soldiers and their family members on both sides of this conflict, wish that Putin had not chosen such a destructive path.
This map is also interesting: https://translatorswithoutborders.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Ukraine-Language-Map.png
I cannot open link
Minsk IV, "trust us" this time it's for real! No really.
I'm not sure if the Russians will take anything less than Putin's aims, which are known to everyone. I wonder in the man in the green t-shirt will get to enjoy his (and his in-laws) extensive real estate portfolio. History isn't particularly kind to obsolete former US allies.
Ukraine will have to give up roughly 20 percent of its territory that Russia currently occupies — calling this “not the worst outcome in the world”(!)
This is basically what was on offer in the Minsk agreements, which the US and UK encouraged Zelenskiy to reject. At this point, it's probably the best outcome to be hoped for. In the meantime, Ukraine has been destroyed, China has enveloped Russia in a very powerful alliance, Europe's economies are in freefall and and both the Ukrainians and Russians have incurred hundreds of thousands of unnecessary casualties. All because of Washington's cynical policy to bleed Russia and fight this war down to the last Ukrainian.
I think Kellogg is going to find this war a tougher nut to crack than he thinks. On the one hand, he has a way to force Zelenskyy to give in: threaten to stop the arms shipments. On the other, he has a way to force Putin to give in: threaten to back Ukraine to the hilt. The problem, obviously, is that he can't do both.
Putin will be happy to pretend to negotiate, but he won't want to accept any Western security guarantee for Ukraine, even if it's not NATO. So some pressure will have to be applied. It's not at all clear that sanctions are going to suffice; Russia has already found ways around them. It's going to require military pressure, and that puts us back pretty much where we are now.
It's very interesting to see the reddit top comments on Ukraine related posts change overnight as the NATO position shifts from collapsing the Russian state with the blood of Ukrainians to conceding territory permanently being the only sensible pathway forward. Web 2.0 truly is half bots and troll farms on all sides of every geopolitical issue.
Is he "serious" about Ukraine?
Has he asked the Ukrainian people who don't want to live under the yoke of another Russian dictator what they want? Have YOU asked?
Where does the desires of the Ukraine people enter into your calculus?
Wouldn't the "best outcome" be the toppling of Putin's dictatorship as a result of his adventurism and a return of Russia to at least the proto-democracy it was before he seized power?
What am I missing here?
Good piece. On a related note, has your assessment of the state of the war on the ground changed since this piece in October?
https://www.kenklippenstein.com/p/ukraine-is-winning
Lastly, Trump should make any security guarantees for Ukraine contingent on them holding an election.
sounds like a sensible plan
Someday I hope to meet Biden and Harris and say, "Maybe you wouldn't have lost if you cared half as much about rebuilding East Palestine, Jackson, Flint, Asheville, or any single place in America as you did about Saudi Arabia, Israel, Ukraine..."
Hmm. Given how I've heard the past few decades called a "new Gilded Age", with the possible rolling up of Ukrainian fascists' desires, the first thing that popped into my head was the phrase heard so much close after its end: "stab in the back" .
(And don't forget what happened to Shimon Peres and who killed him . . . .)